A great trainer, teacher, coach or mentor is unforgettable because of the positive impact they have on your life. When done right, a training program not only helps you develop the skills needed to perform your role to the best of your ability, it improves your outlook on life—and this transcends the workplace and makes for a more happy life at home.

How do you find the right people and develop the right framework to lead your organization to continuous success?

Sr. Director of Leadership & Organizational Development, Jason Zeman, discusses his passion for training and explains how commitment, courage and support are the key ingredients for developing new skills.

  • 3:44 – How great trainers inspire
  • 6:18 – Why learning the ‘basics’ is important
  • 9:18 – What is needed to develop new skills
  • 10:34 – The difference between changing and ingraining behavior
  • 12:37 – The components to building a strong curriculum 
  • 16:03 – The reasons behind ‘priming’ people
  • 20:47 – The three phases of the human brain
  • 25:35 – Why spacing out learning programs leads to success
  • 29:00 – How to become proficient in coaching
  • 34:50 – Overcoming coaching roadblocks
  • 40:01 – The elements of a good coaching module
  • 44:48 – Creating a continuous coaching culture

Books Mentioned:

The 5AM Club – Robin Sharma

https://www.robinsharma.com/book/the-5am-club

It’s The Manager – Gallup

Full Episode Transcription:

 Derek Lundsten

06:42

It’s awesome to have you on the Learn to Win podcast obviously we’ve known each other and been friends a long time and its been fun to just watch your career grow and all that you’re doing in terms of leading and coaching and growing people. And I think that our audience could receive a lot of value from and those people who are part of the LTEN community. It’s awesome to have an LTEN member of the year on. so welcome to the show.

 Jason.Zeman

07:06

Thank you so much Derek. Happy to be here.

 Derek Lundsten

07:12

And with that, you know, obviously this is a chance for you to meet Todd.

07:16

And Todd. Maybe I’ll turn it over to you to ask the first question here. And in terms of getting know Jason, a little bit.

 Todd Staples

07:23

Yeah, let me jump right in. So Jason, I love coming across someone like you, whether it’s through an intro, or just through, you know, being online being on LinkedIn.

07:33

Because as I was going through your profile. I was like, my, my hot words were popping up in your profile like transformation and, you know, organizational development, all these great things that have a big impact on companies.

07:49

Have you always been on that path or was it a very convoluted way to get here and why, why are you doing what you’re doing right. Why are you in the role you are in?

 Jason.Zeman

08:01

Yeah, thanks. It’s a great question. I mean, I’ve been fortunate because I’ve always

08:08

Had such clarity. Early in my career that I always wanted to get into training.

08:15

Even out of college when I got to college and I and I got my first job at Xerox doing you know business to business sales.

08:24

I joined Xerox because of their great training program. I mean, that’s what people kind of shared with me. You guys go work for a company like Xerox, you got a great training program. But what I got. Most out of the training program was the trainer herself.

08:39

And that this individual, you know, you always remember your first trainer. Her name was Hope Stevens, I still follow her on LinkedIn and

08:49

You always remember your first train or she had a big impression on my life whether she knows it or not.

08:56

Because while I left that training saying right great and i’m prepped to go sell these products.

09:02

It really instilled in me that this is really what I need to be doing. I need to be in this kind of training role. So, you know, fast forward a year. I joined a small company called Watson which through mergers and acquisitions is now called Allergen.

09:19

You know, early when I joined that company, again it when uh when I attended the what they call initial sales training.

09:29

When I when I was there, learning from the trainers. Again, I was like, that’s what I want to do so, you know, once I was able, I had, you know, some opportunity to really be on being the field and sell the products, then kind of raised my hand to say, hey, I’ll come into training, I’ll help out.

09:48

And I became a guest trainer and I loved it. And then when I had the opportunity to do a rotation.

09:55

You know, you know, it was such a it just what a great experience. And out of that rotation. I eventually just, you know, joined the

10:05

I joined the team full time, you know, this was back in, in, you know, 2000 or so.

10:14

And though, although the path wasn’t always clear

10:20

Which is a completely different story. I ended up back in a full time role.

10:25

And you know I did the basics. You know, I really, you know, committed to learning the basics of training. I did new hire training for five years, but throughout that five years, I would get the itch to do something else. So I started building very naturally talent development programs.

10:44

You know, and then after I did that for a few years and I got the itch to do Management Development Programs and I got the itch to do you know

10:53

You know, start building leadership, you know, competencies and functional competencies and that’s where I started to kind of work with folks in HR and

11:03

I got to work with sales leads and really started to kind of kind of build this infrastructure. So then when I met you know, fast forward and around the

11:16

You know, met Derek somewhere in there. And then, you know, I kind of got the itch, maybe I want to do something different. Right. I’ve been in training for 10 years I did new hire training I built out, you know, hypo programs I launched leadership competencies. I’ve launched selling model.

11:36

You know, built coaching models because I was doing all of the fundamentals of training and I’m able to go out and do a you know a market access rotation. I did that for a year.

11:47

And what I learned about my rotation and market access is that I didn’t want to market access to the full time job. But what I did walk away from it is going to the head of market access to the time and says, I think you need a curriculum and I can help you build it.

12:01

So I just

12:02

Had that built that entire market access curriculum and I remember I worked with Derek, I think.

12:10

We were doing some sessions together right with Pensenal, right and do it a lot, right, we were doing some good work together.

12:20

And, but, you know, so as I, you know, I’ve always known that I’ve had this kind of passion for training, but more importantly, I’ve had this passion for really helping people realize the full potential that they have

 Derek Lundsten

12:38

I’m so glad that you made that comment.

12:39

Because that was what I was going to dig into because he kept talking, we wanted to do this. I felt I want to do this.

12:44

And and i was going to go and ask you for specifically. What was it about hope or was it about that first experience level for you. And that was the answer. Go ahead Todd I know you want to jump in.

 Todd Staples

12:53

I mean you just you just said the thing I was looking for. I was like why training. You know, it’s funny. Like, people will have different perceptions of what a role is or what a word means. So when you say training someone listening, like I might be thinking of physical training. Right.

 Jason.Zeman

13:12

Right

 Todd Staples

13:14

It’s kind of a stretch, but you know training in general there’s something

13:15

About that that lit you up. And I think you just said it perfectly. It’s like seeing people have to rewind and listen. But it’s something seeing people like living to their potential right like improve

 Jason.Zeman

13:28

Yep, yep, yeah. And I would also say that

13:35

That it’s the, it’s the training that helps. And more importantly, it’s the developed right it’s it’s every. It’s just, yeah. You said training, training can be able to training on a technical skill, but what we know. Right. Well, we know from

13:51

Human behavior and human performance. Is that really to develop new skills requires commitment requires courage requires support.

14:04

And you know that that that kind of idea has helped me to kind of reframe how I think about not just training but recruitment and I kind of reframe how I think about

14:17

Development and everything we do now within my team is all about creating that complete experience because

14:26

We’re not. We’re not a check the box complete this training. Everything we do kind of wraps around creating this complete experience, which means

14:36

We’re not. We’re doing stuff to prime learners, you know, prior to coming into the actual learning event, whether it’s a four hour workshop or it’s a four day program right there’s some type of priming that happens.

14:51

And then what happens after and really what happens after is more important than what happens prior and actually during so we’d spend we do you know really looked at it and really try to put a lot of rigor into it to ensure that they have the right tools they have the right support.

15:12

And they feel confident that they have the ability right to want to implement that. Because the old

15:21

You know the old I guess more traditional

15:25

Kind of data point out there was that it takes 21 days to change behavior.

15:31

And there was. There’s a book out there by Robin Sharma who talks about the 5am club and what he talks about completely shattered that 21 day concept. He talks about it actually takes 66 days.

15:45

Because it’s really the 66 days that you got to focus on that because the 66 days is when you automate that behavior.

15:55

It may take 21 days to change it. But it takes 66 days to ingrained it

 Todd Staples

16:04

Yeah

 Jason.Zeman

16:05

Yeah, so that’s why it’s so important. So it’s not just it’s real development.

16:11

And that kind of ties back to this kind of point one of the principles that my team follows, which is really centered around creating that complete experience for these individuals.

 Todd Staples

16:23

All right. You just gave me four hours of material right there so can I pause you and go back on some of these bullet points?

16:32

So first of all, for someone listening. We have people listening and watching from all different segments markets and countries even

16:42

Can you explain exactly what you mean when you say you build a curriculum, you build a program. Can you make that really tangible for someone like what it actually is.

Jason.Zeman

16:54

Yeah, so it could be a number of different things. I mean, if you take a program, you know, we, you know, take, you know, one of the things that we’ve done in the US as of last year, we did these coaching summits, where we implemented an organizational wide coaching model that we

17:15

Implemented throughout all eight business units at Bausch Health. So when I say a curriculum, the you know the curriculum for the coaching model was to

17:27

Input, you know, designed, one, two, we had to find the model. We were lucky to partner with a company called Relevant Solutions and they had a model that we were able to

17:40

That that was tactical and practical as we like to say, so you need a model right and then you need to wrap you know content around it to ensure that people know they can understand it and they can apply it. So the curriculum includes

17:59

Videos we shot videos so that you know people can actually see what good looks like and what not so good looks like and

18:08

And that curriculum while they watch the videos, they can have a discussion around it. You know what, what was good about this situation, what can we could we improve around this situation. So use videos use different exercises use case studies.

18:27

One of the other things to think about in the curriculum that’s important is how you you know what’s where’s the accountability.

18:36

So whether what we did in the coaching coaching summits is we built in a certification, which you don’t see very often you typically see certifications, at least in a

18:47

In a commercial environment, you’ll typically see selling certifications or product certifications or product launch certifications. Right.

18:55

Sort of find that they know the knowledge, but they, but they also know the skill in terms of how to sell the product. We just kind of flipped it and said,

19:03

Hey, if we’re we’re certifying reps and managers on selling, we should be certified managers on coaching just important to building blocks to any commercial organization. So you certify them and you create rubrics, which is basically a series of criteria to help evaluate whether they

19:23

met the criteria or they achieve the, you know, they went above and beyond the criteria or they best. So there’s different things you could do. You know, you could tie a rubric or a certification and then also what goes into a curriculum is what happens after the event right so

19:40

telecom after. Yes, sir.

 Todd Staples

19:42

Can we talk about you mentioned, so that’s that’s a good framework for understanding and yeah

Visual for me. I’m very visual, but a tangible sort of outline. Thank you for that.

The other thing is, you mentioned what priming. So maybe we’ll go in sequential order.

 Jason.Zeman

19:58

Sure.

 Todd Staples

19:59

Priming and then you just talked about accountability. I think I would assume that starts in the group and then continues after

 Jason.Zeman

20:07

Yup.

 Todd Staples

20:08

and then the after care follow up encouragement love to hear about each part.

 Jason.Zeman

20:13

Yup, sustainability.

 Todd Staples

20:16

So how about the priming? And what do you do to prime people?

 Jason.Zeman

20:20

So it starts with getting a baseline. So what we do is we craft the survey, you could do it through survey monkey could do it through other mechanisms.

20:32

You could do it through through I learned

20:36

Which is our, the way we brand scrimmage. So you could do through scrimmage. And there’s other tools that you can use out there.

20:44

So you prime it to kind of get a baseline in terms of where people think they are as relates to coaching and just by asking certain questions you’re priming the brain to say, okay, they’re asking me these questions for a reason.

21:00

And so that when they get the next piece of information. It could be an article around the importance of coaching. It could, you know, sometimes priming.

21:10

Could be a direct directly related to what you’re teaching, sometimes it could just be a little bit more broad to help people understand the importance of coaching.

21:22

Not necessarily always training them on the specific model. But sometimes, you know, you got to think about, is it too early to introduce

21:30

A model because people start might start kind of drawing their own biases in terms of why they can’t why they want to implement or why then they’re going to choose not to people try to implement it. Right. So there’s some different things you can do. If you’re going to introduce

21:47

Say in our situation, you know, a coaching model. You want to make sure that you’re providing enough detail to try to eliminate some of those biases that they may

21:58

You know, choose to have. So, you know, it varies, but one of the other things that we do in priming is that in our, you know, communication is so important. So

22:08

We really try to help people understand why are we doing this. What are the objectives that we’re looking to achieve, and most importantly, what is the bigger picture.

22:19

Right, meaning that is this just a one, we’re just going to do a one program. No, how does this kind of fit into a bigger plan.

22:28

That’s really important when it comes to priming. The other thing that’s important around priming or prior to

22:35

The actual event is to ensure that you have top down, buy in or support. So, you know, one of the things that we did is we we met with all the

22:48

GMs or general managers and heads of sales across the businesses and as well as the directors to ensure that they understood

22:57

What was the, what was the vision. What was the strategy, and what was the plan. And what was their role. Most importantly, what is their role in the

23:06

Program. So that priming can happen whether it’s a program or whether it’s a you know a tool that you’re rolling out like such as like leadership competencies. Yeah.

 Todd Staples

23:20

I’m fascinated by

23:22

A lot of that is based on the human psychology that’s involved there. There’s like you know you you mentioned some very good

23:32

Good examples that makes sense logically. There’s also some that are out of left field that would shock and i’m sure you know of some of these

23:40

But one of my favorite people in this realm is Robert Cialdini he wrote the book influence back in the 80s, I think.

23:50

His new book is called

23:52

Pre Suasion and it’s all about priming.

Jason.Zeman

23:54

Hmmm

Todd Staples

23:56

And I went to a conference that he was at and some of the things he showed were that

They would bring people in to fill out some sort of a survey or do some sort of a conference and they would sneak in these little subliminal priming messages ahead of time.

24:13

That seemed to have nothing to do with the event or the topic or the content at all and

 Jason.Zeman

24:18

Yep.

 Todd Staples

24:20

yet they make a big impact like he showed some examples.

24:24

Of just like a picture that would be on the wall of like a person alone in the street

versus like a happy family silhouette just those pictures on the wall would influence the way people responded to certain questions.

 Jason.Zeman

24:38

Yup.

Todd Staples

24:39

So it’s fascinating to think you have like you’re very logical.

24:40

Path of what we know works and people like to know purposes of priming and they like to

24:47

Know what they’re getting into. And, you know, I’m sure there’s teaching and coaching frameworks that have just been proven to be the most seamless. But there’s also these little hidden hidden things that I find fascinating that can be used for good or evil.

 Jason.Zeman

24:58

Yep.

25:04

yeah it you know it was something you said there kind of remind me is that if you think about the human brain, right, the human brain works in kind of three different phases. Doesn’t matter what it is right first stage is saturate

25:24

Right so priming is kind of the saturate you begin to kind of saturate the bind with content ideas information, let’s say, right.

25:35

And then the second phase is incubate right so this is where the mind starts to begin processing information as everyone processes information different speeds.

25:47

And over time.

25:51

You know this this kind of shows up in reflections. Why we talk about reflection as a leader is is so critical. Taking the time to reflect is

26:02

You have to, you have to make time for it for me when I reflect the most. It’s my drive to and from work I my commute doesn’t bother me because that’s my time to reflect. And when I’m reflecting and I’m going to the incubation process, in a way, I’m

26:18

Kind of reflecting, thinking about my strategy. I’m thinking about how and refining that I’m thinking about my plan. I’m thinking about conversation. So it’s all that kind of incubation part

26:28

And then the third part is the illuminate this is where you have those insights come to you right that’s

26:37

That’s where they talk about you get that eureka moment right well that eureka moment comes from the saturation and the incubation. It just doesn’t come to you so

26:48

It says, you think about the three phases of the mind right saturate, incubate, illuminate right. That’s how we think about we take that kind of

26:58

Philosophy right

27:01

And we apply it right so the priming the, the, how we design the curriculum in the program right we’re taking all three things into mind even how we

27:14

Think about which you know do we do so when we do programs. I don’t. I actually prefer not to do a program over one full day I prefer to do a program where it’s a half a day.

27:27

On an afternoon and in the morning of the next day because something happens. Something magical happens overnight, because the mind is constantly processing the information while you’re sleeping.

27:41

So that’s why the mornings, we always say, so what’s your, you know, what were some of the insights that you gained from yesterday.

27:49

Because they’ve been processing it whether they realize it or not. They’re processing that information. So we like to kind of structure programs.

27:57

You know, we’ll do. We’ll do two days of content over three days and we do it by design. It’s not, you know, that was the only time people had available. We do everything is by design. And then that helps with help people kind of move through the process a little bit faster.

28:16

So that when they leave the program.

28:19

They’re leaving with a sense of clarity, they’re leaving with a sense of

28:26

With a with a sense of

28:28

You know ability and they’re leading with a sense of kind of willingness to I could do this.

 Todd Staples

28:34

So I want to drill in there a little bit because I think that’s counterintuitive approach to take.

28:41

Two days of content and put it

28:43

Into three days. Seems very wasteful Jason.

28:47

Like, that’s not efficient.

28:51

When it comes to just hours in the day

28:52

Right, it’s just not

28:53

And then you have the flip side you have like Tony Robbins, who does

28:57

Seven days crammed into four right where he does like

29:00

Literally, I’ve never been, but like

 Todd Staples

29:02

16 to

29:03

18

29:04

Hours a day like talk about saturation right so

29:09

It must be

29:09

Interesting reasons for both, but just in general, I kind of, as you’ve seen the the priming and the actual execution and the accountability and the follow up.

29:21

What are these assumptions that are wrong that you found that these counterintuitive strategies like taking the content and stretching it out.

29:31

What other gems and you come across in your in your career that you’ve that you’ve embraced and you integrate into your current programs.

 Todd Staples

29:42

You might not even notice them anymore because they’re so familiar to you now, but from an outside perspective.

 Jason.Zeman

29:47

Yeah, with the program itself. That’s a good question. Um,

29:52

What other gems. I mean, yeah, the spacing right to make sure we’re doing some sort of spacing where we’re incorporating spacing into our programs.

30:04

Meaning, like we’re giving people time, you know, versus the traditional 15 minute break, which either do a 30 minute break. You know, we try not to do. I mean, just something as basic goes, let’s not have something going on every single night. Let’s give people time to just decompress

30:24

You know the spacing shows up with some of our programs. So, you know, we, one of the programs we run a Bausch Health is called emerging leaders.

30:35

It’s a one year program and we kind of do it in a very kind of blended way in terms of

30:45

You know, ensuring that at least something’s happening every month. It could be in a virtual way but also as you think about the live session, the live events that happen.

30:55

We ensure that their spacing there right there every three to four months versus trying to cram it all in and say we’re going to, we’re going to do a six month program. And we’re going to do a program every two months. Like, it just doesn’t get people enough time.

31:10

Now that can vary depending upon the level of leader.

31:15

Right. It depends on you know some of the things that you know something other factors. The I think about is what is the level of weird. Do I have someone who’s like really new to leader leadership.

31:27

Do I have someone who is

31:31

You know,

31:33

Their in a leadership role, but maybe you know their level of tenure and or I should say their level of effectiveness as a leader. Right. And then you have people who are very kind of top grade leaders. So there’s different things you have to kind of keep in mind.

31:51

When you’re designing

 Todd Staples

31:53

Do you incorporate any personality profiles, disc profile, Myers Briggs, Kolby test anything like that.

 Jason.Zeman

32:00

Yea, I mean we

32:03

We, we, we tend to teach disc.

32:07

As our preferred behavioral style. And the reason why is it, it’s more sticky, it’s easier for meaning it’s easier for people to

32:17

Apply more quickly than, say, you know, a Myers Briggs, right, you really have to kind of stop and pause and really think about. All right. What quadrant am i in

32:30

There’s just a lot more to unpack would say it’s like a Myers Briggs versus something like a desk. Now we’re actually considering

32:39

We’re trying to do now would say the work that we’ve done around coaching is, you know, last year when we did the coaching summits, it was really about it was okay. Being basic be you know if think about, like, three, three levels of proficiency basic proficient and mastery. Right.

32:57

It’s okay. Being basic and learning a new model. Now granted, you may have been a manager for many years, but how

33:03

You know. Were you an effective coach, so it’s okay to be basic. And we tried it, you know, and throughout the summit’s that we did last year it was kind of moving them from basic to proficiency.

33:15

Right.

33:17

Just as of this morning we actually kind of kicked off kind of the third part of our kind of this this of our coaching model called the path to coaching proficiency. So now it’s all about how do we become proficient with coaching.

33:38

We hadn’t we become really effective. Our, our vision. Our aspiration is that we want to develop them and and we want to say that Bausch health

33:51

Has the most professional coaches in the industry that they are mastery at coaching. It’s an aspiration and is certainly

34:02

A big aspiration part of, kind of, you know, once people are proficient with the model that they have. Now then we want to begin to start introducing kind of other pieces that compliment it

34:14

And such as behavioral styles. So it’s not just kind of write it the way we teach the coaching is your personalize it

34:24

But how can we personalize it even more by coaching, not only the representative on different behavioral styles, but helping the representative. Think about the behavioral style of their customer

 Todd Staples

34:38

And that’s, Derek and I have

34:40

been having a lot of these conversations because the technology and all different areas is it’s getting to the point where you can

34:48

Measure so much

34:50

You know, we’ve got these really interesting opportunities moving forward

34:54

to figure out, maybe, maybe some people want the seven days crammed into three and some people want the two days.

35:01

spread out across four and it

35:02

works better for those people.

35:04

So it’s a matter of identifying the people to help them grow.

Jason.Zeman

35:13

Yeah, there’s, there’s, there’s a new there’s a new article out. I think it’s

35:20

I have to pull the pull pull exactly who it’s from. I think I think was at MIT. It talks about power skills.

35:29

You know that soft skills are really should be called power skills coaching is one of those power skills right

35:35

But the reason I bring it up is, is not the quote the you know the power skills piece, but it’s but one of the things that talks about in the article is how kind of like the look how people learn

35:49

Is changing right and your, your notion, your

35:54

Mention of technology kind of sparked in my brain was that how we how we

36:00

How we develop people is changing, right. So while you know programs certainly are helpful live programs.

36:09

There’s a lot more you’ll use and you see this showing up right in programs where there’s, you know, there’s some type of

36:20

Kind of message, you know, some type of like discussion board where people are maybe, you know, learning and maybe they’re watching a short, you know, micro learning video

36:30

Maybe they’re reading a light paper. Maybe they’re in whatever it is right and then they’re kind of chatting about it and like a discussion board, whether it’s moderated by maybe a facilitator.

36:46

Or not.

36:48

And they’re taking that now they’re taking those learning and then they’re applying it to some type of strategic leadership challenge.

36:55

Where they kind of think about, okay, how do I kind of these aren’t just kind of concepts and principles, but now you’re actually applying them.

37:04

To something that you’re working on in the workplace. So that’s it’s it’s right. And then, so it’s really challenging the way in which even we think about

37:18

Training or I like to send more kind of learning and development or leadership and development right it’s really challenging our, our, the way we think about it, versus more of the traditional I’m gonna go to a program.

 Todd Staples

37:37

Derek do you want to chime in?

 Derek Lundsten

37:40

Go ahead, man. I can see that you’re chomping, so go ahead.

 Jason.Zeman

37:42

He’s in the incubation phase right now

 Jason.Zeman

37:51

And tomorrow night when you’re having your wife’s birthday party. It’s going to illuminate then

37:59

You’re going to have all of these insights beyond just the big Nokia phone

 Todd Staples

38:05

Yeah.

38:07

It’s going to be an interesting party.

 Jason.Zeman

38:09

There’s going to be

 Todd Staples

38:09

In the hair that looks very illuminating. There’s like rocker wigs and

Jason.Zeman

38:13

It’s amazing.

Todd Staples

38:17

So I can kind of go two ways with this. I’m very curious about how the coaching program is set up and who the coaches are and who’s getting coached and what that relationship looks like.

Todd Staples

38:29

And then at the same time. I’m also just thinking

38:36

I’m just looking at a couple of notes here

38:39

I’m curious about the the coaches that you are training and what sort of what sort of roadblocks. They have and how you’ve overcome.

38:51

People’s roadblocks to stepping into a leadership role and stepping into a coaching role.

 Derek Lundsten

38:55

I like that question. It’s a great question.

 Todd Staples

38:59

All right. Question number two.

 Jason.Zeman

39:02

Question number two roadblock. I think

39:07

I think some of the roadblocks, at least on the commercial you know in the in the

39:15

commercial side of the business, you know, and I think this can really apply to any industry. I think

39:23

You know there’s. Listen, there’s a lot of great managers and leaders out there that, you know, regardless of the tenure that they’ve been in their role.

39:31

Right. But sometimes we we make we make very big assumptions that can have a negative ripple effect on the entire organization and that is we assume that just because someone has been a manager for five years 10 years 15 years that they know how to coach.

39:52

And some people say, well, I’m an expert in coaching because I’ve been a manager for 10 years. So it’s a great so what coaching model. Have you been using

39:59

I’ve been using my own model. Okay. Can you describe to me what that model is. So I’d love to learn about it and and you know, usually it’s just a hodgepodge of

40:09

Different models and books and stuff that they’ve learned over the time that they’ve kind of created their own model and sometimes they get lucky and it works. And most of the time it doesn’t so

40:21

I think some of the things, some of the challenges that people have is just being open to trying a new model number one.

40:31

Number two is and I think it’s probably more important more important than number one is and something that Seth Borsa on my team talks about is you learn a new model, you’re excited about the new model. Okay. When you start applying the model and maybe your team member is resistant

40:51

Do you fold and just go back to your how you used to coach or do you fight through that resistance and really have the courage to continue to keep trying and keep trying and keep trying.

41:09

Because, you know, by taking a different coaching approach. You’re asking someone to change right what what we know about

41:19

Everyone ever says, Well, you know, change is constant or it’s inevitable and etc. Right. But what we know about changes that no one likes to change.

41:28

And coaches and coaches right we’re, we’re, we’re developing them to help change the behavior of other people. Right.

41:40

But sometimes the coaches themselves are not willing to change. They’ll say, I could change other people’s behavior when it comes to me change my behavior, I get a pass right so

You know coaching right coaches are in the business of changing behavior, just like sales representatives are in the business of changing customers behaviors.

42:05

We’re all in the business of changing behaviors. So, but, as much as we want to change the behaviors of others, we have to be willing and we have to be like this word keeps coming up. We have to have the courage to change our own behaviors.

 Todd Staples

42:24

I am totally in alignment here. I think there’s two things. Top of Mind that one is. I’m not sure exactly the organizational structure of who’s doing the coaching. But the thing that I just breaks my heart is there could be some great person in that role, who has an amazing idea for a coaching model

 Todd Staples

42:44

Who doesn’t do it because he doesn’t want to get fired if it doesn’t work.

42:48

You know, he or she, I mean,

 Jason.Zeman

42:51

Yeah, I mean, what are the things. Yeah, I mean one of the things we did at Bausch health is we we researched coaching model I mean I’m blessed to have a team of Mike Tryba and Seth Borsuc and you know other

43:06

These are individuals that have been in the industry for a while. They’ve been exposed to different coaching bottles.

43:14

And you know, we wanted to, you know, back in back in 2017, you know, we wanted to implement a new coaching model. We wanted to implement something that is new and different that people

43:26

You know, our team motto is to show something, you know, show something people have never seen before. It’s a quote from the movie Gladiator for all you listeners right Russell Crowe.

43:37

Right. So that’s what we we aim for right is really kind of show people something that they’ve never seen before. So we didn’t want to introduce a coaching model that people, I’ve done this model before. So we introduced something that was totally new totally different.

43:53

And we, but we also researched it other models to really kind of do our due diligence and then we invited leaders from most of the businesses to come in and pressure test whether this should be our model or not.

44:12

And

44:14

The advisory committee that we brought in.

44:18

Yeah, the advisory committee that we brought in, we you know we we didn’t, we didn’t just say, Hey, here’s our new model. We wanted to understand from them.

44:28

What are the kind of elements that make up a coaching model. You know what happened, you know, just kind of break down the call, like so. Okay, so what happens. Prior to the call. What are you doing,

44:39

All right, it’s already what’s happening before you even go on the field, right, what happens, what are you doing prior to the call. What are you doing during the call. What are you doing after the call. What are you doing after the field right

44:51

And then what they realize is the city. And I’m like, wow, coaching is coaching coach. It doesn’t matter if I’m in the equipment sales, or if

45:01

I’m in devices or if I’m in, you know, you know, more of the prescription side of the business coaching is coaching and that in itself is a huge win. And then when we introduce the model that basically mirrored what they what they came up with.

45:24

You know it. It was a no brainer. And we left the meeting supportive that this is the direction that we wanted to go

 Todd Staples

45:34

i’m so glad we went there because

45:36

I was thinking the exact same thing. And somebody comes up a lot when I talk with coaches.

45:41

Trainers leaders.

45:45

Is people seem to have a different opinion as to whether or not the coach needs to

be good at everything they’re trying to help the

45:55

Student Do

 Jason.Zeman

45:57

Right. Yep.

 Todd Staples

45:58

Because there are

45:59

business coaches that know nothing about business but they coach on you know human elements that are necessary to succeed.

 Jason.Zeman

In business, or someone who’s already

46:09

Minded and understands things they

46:10

Don’t they can implement and execute and have an impact there.

 Jason.Zeman

46:15

Yeah.

Todd Staples

46:16

Can you can you share a little of the secret sauce. I’m very curious about the things that you looked

46:20

At and maybe some of the things you liked and things you decided to get rid of and

46:26

And I don’t know. Are you able to share a little bit?

 Jason.Zeman

46:28

Yeah, what we liked about the model?

 Todd Staples

46:33

Yeah, well what you liked about you said you did a bunch of research on the other coaching models.

46:37

What you chose and what’s your new Frankenstein coaching model like can you share that with us.

 Jason.Zeman

46:42

Yeah, we wanted to

46:45

We wanted to ensure that it was aligned to any selling model.

46:50

So aligning to the selling model is really important because you know at the time we had

46:56

To two different selling models that were be used. So we wanted to make sure that it could align to the selling model we wanted it to be a skills based coaching model.

47:08

We wanted to ensure we wanted it to be as a type of model that you didn’t it, you know, thinking about the priming conversation we had earlier.

47:19

We we’ve done models in the password, you have to take basically like you know

47:26

Eight hours of pre work just to understand the model, right, it’s just, it’s just, it’s just not. It’s just not practical. Right, nor nor is it relevant

47:39

And we, you know, we actually were using a model. It was more of a leadership model wasn’t necessarily a coaching model.

47:47

But we learned from that we learned that. Okay, this is, this is what we can’t do. Because when we were teaching this more of this leadership model.

47:55

We learned that, you know, during the program. People are like, this is great, but then they go to use it. They like it wasn’t couldn’t get applied.

48:04

So, you know, we really wanted something that you know as Mike Trybe on my team would call it practical tactical something that you could if you wanted to introduce it to someone, it could be done in less than a minute.

48:20

Because the other thing we wanted to ensure is that model is really cool about the model we picked. I want to give credit to Joe Seabra and

48:32

Michael McKinley this model is I think the only model out there that can be used by the representative to self coach themselves when the coach is not there.

48:50

And that’s really powerful. So you’re not always relying on a physical human being to be there to coach you there’s value with it, but

49:05

The, the power of self coaching the power of having someone the power to have the person’s be able to self coach themselves is really is really special.

49:19

Because there’s that then what that does is it creates a continuous coaching environment or culture that was, I should say.

49:29

It’s a continuous coaching culture. So by the manager consistently doing it a certain way. Naturally, the person that you’re coaching will self start self coaching themselves that way.

49:43

So there’s some different things that we looked at, you know, as we were kind of evaluating

49:50

You know, different models.

 Derek Lundsten

49:54

So Jason. This has been a really

49:56

I think valuable and and practical and tactical conversation for our listeners understand just to process the method by which he built this how you’re applying it how it’s being utilized

50:07

And all those pieces and thank you for being so open and sharing. Just to kind of bring it back full circle. You know, I have known each other for a long time and you look at the big picture. I know you’ve kind of mentioned it throughout the process. You’re always looking at

50:21

What’s next in terms of what

50:22

You’re building. How do you see

50:24

The lessons that you’ve experienced in

50:26

Building, coming to this next chapter with your skills as a leader and a coach and a business executive

 Jason.Zeman

50:30

Yeah, how do I see the future?

Derek Lundsten

50:38

Yeah, in your own perspective in that line. Yeah.

Jason.Zeman

50:41

Yeah here’s what I would say. And this is something that’s been incubating for me for the last couple of weeks. You know, I think, as we’re as we’re about to enter 2020

50:55

One of the things I’ve really been thinking about is, you know, what is the vision. What is the future. What is next five years look like

51:02

For Bausch health and what it really comes down to is that it’s all about the team leader, the team leader is the linchpin of any organization gallop just came out with a book called, it’s the manager.

51:19

Right.

51:20

And I’m in the way is, think about it. Yes, it’s the manager, but you know, it’s my belief that

51:30

You know, it’s our mission, you know, for my team to develop great leaders at every level of the organization.

51:37

But where we need to ensure that we are allocating spending our resources is it’s the team leader and it’s because these individuals can have a ripple effect.

51:50

throughout an entire organization. And then, you know, other benefits people are kind of coming full circle is people are realizing their full potential.

52:04

That transcends right that that experience that they’re now having it and work transcends into their personal life.

52:13

That positivity that they’re gaining at work shows up now at home.

52:18

Right, and that’s the beauty of all this. Right. And that kind of brings and that’s why I love what I do. I’m passionate about. I think about it constantly, but

52:29

I think that’s really the gallop gallop him, you know, hit on the head, right. It’s really about. It’s the manager in the way we think about it, it’s the team leader is the team leader is our competitive advantage.

52:44

 Derek Lundsten

52:45

Well as a great wrap up, and I

52:48

Want to thank you for your time and sharing, how can the audience, you know, for those who don’t already know you. How can they find you. How can they connect with you and learn more.

Jason.Zeman

52:59

Sure, I’m on LinkedIn. You can find me on LinkedIn. I’m active, feel free to

53:04

Send me, you know, send me send me a note feel you feel free to connect with me.

53:11

And

53:13

Active on LinkedIn. I’ve a tremendous value that comes from LinkedIn, so I enjoy sharing articles and I enjoy reading articles that other people post so please connect with me via LinkedIn.

53:27

Derek Lundsten

Jason, thanks so much for your time.

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