Could failing be the #1 way to Learn to Win? PHD Ana Melikian thinks so.

Do you remember playing in the sandbox when you were a kid? You weren’t afraid to try new things, so why are adults so afraid of failure today? It is ok to fail as long as you are learning from your mistakes to prevent the same thing from happening repeatedly. Consulting Psychologist, Ana Melikian shares experiences, strategies and effective tools to help achieve success and fulfillment, even if you have to fail first to do so.

2:41 – The coaching journey
8:34 – The younger generations openness to fail
10:48 – Learning from Nature & Nurture
14:19 – How to incorporate a ‘sandbox’ into real life situations
15:51 – Creating a culture of excellence through failure
19:15 – The importance of cultivating a gratitude mindset
20:36 – Instead of feedback, feed forward
27:03 – Why people stay in painful situations
28:57 – Learning to be comfortable with the uncomfortable
29:51 – Becoming and striving as a leader
33:08 – We cannot expect different results by repeating the same patterns
37:09 – Be persistent. If you fail, try again
38:52 – Finding a balance between failure and doing a poor job

Books
The Four Agreements – Don Miguel Ruiz                                             Reveals the source of self-limiting beliefs that rob us of joy and create needless suffering.

Delivering Happiness – Tony Hsieh
It details Tony Hsieh’s life as an entrepreneur, with emphasis on the the importance of creating core values for your company, with specifics stories about his companies LinkExchange and Zappos.

Principles – Ray Dalio
A book by the most successful hedge fund manager in history, Ray Dalio based on principles he had developed while running Bridgewater Associates.

Go For No – Richard Fenton & Andrea Waltz
Sticks and Stones May Break My Bones but “NO” Can Never Hurt Me! That’s the lesson twenty-eight year old copier salesman Eric James Bratton is about to learn. And he’s going to learn it from the most unlikely of mentors – himself!

Podcast

Mindset Zone

Website

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Teaser Clip

23:39- 26:17 – Cultivating a gratitude mindset

FULL TRANSCRIPTION:

Ana Melikian
00:33
Hello.
00:35
So let’s see why the sound. Maybe I have too low.
00:40
Let’s see arm or maybe you are muted still
00:48
So I see our mic there.
00:51
And
00:54
Okay, now

Todd Staples
00:57
This is like the blue light is on, even when the mic is off.

Ana Melikian
01:01
Yeah.

Todd Staples
01:02
It gives you a little, little a.
01:05
Little test memory test. And we are so excited for this call and Derek should be joining up and there is

Ana Melikian
01:16
When their fault and like

Todd Staples
01:18
I kept in

Unknown Speaker
01:20
Hey Derek

Derek Lundsten
01:21
How are you, hey, how’s it going

Ana Melikian
01:23
Very good pleasure to be here with both of you.

Todd Staples
01:28
Yeah, we’re pumped. I was just telling Anna how excited I am for this interview and I’ve been diving into your podcast. It’s like every single topic of your show and like, Oh, that’s a good one. That’s a great
01:43
They’re just they’re just spot on. But what we love to get into

Ana Melikian
01:48
Thank you. And the is something that is my goal for next year to restart my podcast.
01:55
Oh, new recordings there.
01:58
So, and you see even my dog may he’s over there that white thing is a dog.
02:05
Okay.
02:06
And like three the nose and the eyes is my

Todd Staples
02:10
Little polar bear face there. Hiding.

Unknown Speaker
02:12
Yeah.

Todd Staples
02:14
So, Derek How are things on your end,
02:18
Baby any minute.

Ana Melikian
02:19
It will
02:21
Yeah. Oh, you are way as the first one.

Derek Lundsten
02:23
Now is our second our second. But yeah, I can be literally any minute, my wife just got back from the doctor.
02:30
Okay, literally, it could be any minute.

Ana Melikian
02:33
Okay. And the second is faster than the first one really got to run. And he starts. Everybody say set. The second one is not as long as the labor as the first

Derek Lundsten
02:46
Right. Yep.
02:48
So very exciting times here.

Todd Staples
02:53
So is there anything you want to discuss before we jump right into the recording actually

Derek Lundsten
03:00
Ana and I had a really good chat. A few weeks ago.
03:03
So I think I’m feeling prepared for the conversation, I think, like you said, Todd. There’s a lot of a lot of topics that we can dig into on many, many areas. So I think that would be a great conversation.

Ana Melikian
03:15
So yeah, and I just, I’m, I’m very easy to go with the flow. So,

Derek Lundsten
03:20
I definitely Todd is more scripted and I am I just kind of go wherever the conversation feels is calling us. So I like that that you do that to Anna.
03:30
And and yeah I think the only other thing would be that as we’re as we’re framing it up.
03:35
We just jumped right into the conversation is that we’ve done your interview done your introduction done the context on that. And then we kind of just clear that up at the end. So that helps to clarify a little bit

Ana Melikian
03:47
Yeah, and Todd, I have to say. I mean, I have to say i’m impressed with your 12 backgrounds.

Todd Staples
03:55
It’s working out pretty well.

Ana Melikian
03:56
Yeah.

Todd Staples
03:57
I even got a haircut. So I had less

Derek Lundsten
04:00
you look good Todd, yeah

Todd Staples
04:02
I was like, I keep getting a little bit of green screen like noise. So I thought our trim the hair down for this. Yeah.
04:12
With the, one of the things that I picked out as just five topics we could get into
04:18
From basically from your website and from your podcasts are mindset what mindset blind spots failing your way to success. That’s a big one. I think for scrimmage especially. The Four Agreements, which I am a huge fan of that book I’ve read it twice and then just general learning and change.

Ana Melikian
04:36
Okay, so just let me all of them. I’m perfectly fine. But let me think a little bit off the because The Four Agreements my big thing. They are is not taking it personally.
04:48
You have a

Todd Staples
04:50
Couldn’t agree more.

Unknown Speaker
04:51
And

Ana Melikian
04:53
Now I have to think about the three
04:55
And I just put it in the

Todd Staples
04:56
Chat. If you want to

Ana Melikian
04:58
Thank you.

Todd Staples
04:59
Derek, if you read The Four Agreements.

Derek Lundsten
05:00
I have not read The Four Agreements.

Todd Staples
05:02
So now.
05:03
And maybe we’ll save that.

Unknown Speaker
05:06
Was good

Derek Lundsten
05:09
I can certainly riff on it. Anyway, just give me this, give me the summary of it when we go through it there, or whatever.

Ana Melikian
05:16
So just to remind me that the three because if I from there I can you really can take it.

Todd Staples
05:21
Was gonna say the same to you.

Ana Melikian
05:24
I can find that

Todd Staples
05:27
Don’t take anything personally be impeccable with your word.

Derek Lundsten
05:31
Yes. Cool. All right.

Todd Staples
05:33
Um, let me see.
05:37
They’re very
05:38
Specific in their language.

Ana Melikian
05:42
Yeah, cuz my. The thing about it because he
05:47
Is. Okay, I have to impeccable with your word don’t take anything personally. Don’t make assumptions.
05:53
And always do your best, right.

Todd Staples
05:56
Yeah, great things.

Derek Lundsten
05:58
I’m down with all those so
06:00
Talk about those. Excellent.

Todd Staples
06:03
All right.
06:05
Derek said we’re already recording, so we will have just done the intro. We talked a little about you and then we jump right in and I, we are so excited to have you here. Thank you for taking the time to to join us today.

Ana Melikian
06:17
My pleasure to be here

Derek Lundsten
06:20
Your topics we can get into today. So, Todd. I know you’re wrapping and chomping at the bit. Why don’t you kick it off for us today.

Todd Staples
06:26
Yeah Ana there’s so much you know you have such an interesting background and really unique advantage to someone in the I’ll call it the coaching space.
06:38
With your PhD background. I mean, that’s, that’s, I think we should definitely touch on that and maybe you can start by by telling us a little bit about your journey.
06:47
And how a more standard path towards the medical profession.
06:53
Took a took a turn and you went into your own your own business and now you’re coaching and helping people learn how to use software and you have a lot of things going on. I’d love to hear a bit about your path and how you ended up where you are today.

Ana Melikian
07:05
And I was thinking about these in the other day, and how it is interesting, our journeys.
07:11
So I can spiral. They’re the we really, they are. We are coming back. Oh, I’m coming back to all things but that the different level. And I find that very interesting because
07:23
One of the things of the coaching profession that fascinates me is that these are
07:29
Most coaches. It’s not their first rodeo. They, they are the life I call. They are the past life and now they are doing coaching or sometimes they have several past lives and now they are doing coaching and bringing the richness all together.
07:43
In my case, my background is psychology and I did my bachelor’s in psychology two masters in psychology, a PhD in psychology. I was teaching in a private university in Portugal and another university in Spain.
07:59
And I have my private clinical practice. I was traveling the world with I always love traveling
08:05
I was doing that with the conference. That’s what you’re doing, academia to present the piper something like an was in one of the traveling since 2001 that I came to Phoenix, Arizona.
08:17
And I met the person that became a couple of years later my husband, and that is the reason why I moved to the United States and why I’m living in Phoenix, Arizona.
08:29
And that raised a big challenge for me because as I was a clinical psychologist in Europe, I moved here.
08:38
At the API that is the American Psychological Association will accept me to teach in a college they said that the PhD for that.
08:47
But for me, a license of psychologists is a different totally different story. So I was like, oops, in a moment of crisis.
08:55
That became an opportunity because I found coaching and I fall in love with coaching and I realized that
09:02
Is personal development all my training that I have, I could use in coaching and really helping people. I like to think about like a scale where you have zero in the middle.
09:14
And before my career was helping people that worry somewhere in the negative side of the scale, I was working mainly with problems like anxiety and depression and chronic pain.
09:26
And now was helping them to be somewhere in the zero arrived to a normal life.
09:32
And then with coaching is this plus side of the scale is people that already have their things together, like all of us, more or less.
09:42
And they really want to thrive. They really want to explore what is possible and they fall in love with it I become a life coach. I really thrive with it.
09:54
But at the same time, I also face the problems that so many people nowadays they want to have their online business. Okay. We let’s face it, we are is the
10:04
The image and needle in the haystack. Sure, we can have a incredible professional beautiful website. Yeah. Send a slight a grain of sand in the beach. There are so many out there. So how can you make it
10:20
And there is like, I think I brought my background of the if you have a problem, your research about it and you thrive. To find the solution.
10:30
So I did that. And I found people out there that are making it and learn marketing and communication is just a way of being out there. I like that. I can be
10:41
Good up there. I find a system called the book yourself solid system I become certified in teaching it. I even become after several years of working with the
10:50
Creator of the system. Michael port, I became the director of education for the book yourself solid School of coach training.
10:57
So, and I transition from life. So from psychologist, I became a life coach life coach I became a business coach and what I’m realizing is there that I’m going back again to psychology
11:14
But now as a consulting psychologist, because there is these area of psychology that is called consulting psychologist.
11:23
That is all about applying what we know all the insights that we know from psychology and related science.
11:31
To help us drive us as individuals, as groups and organizations, I’m focusing a lot on the individual. And this micro business. And so, so all these things ties together even my
11:48
The skill that I have of helping people with technology.
11:52
And they had this one thing that stops coaches soloprenuers in general for being more out there itself to deal with online marketing online stuff and the technology associated with it.
12:04
I know I can teach them there and I have the tech tip for coaches that is all about there, and about what I always tell them, the more important piece of technology that they have
12:17
Is between their two years, what is going on in their mindset in the way they see the world and they have to work that too.

Derek Lundsten
12:28
So I think that’s the perfect. I mean, that’s, I, I could kind of feel in the in the energy that that was an important aspect.
12:34
And obviously, you know, we’re a technology company. And we’re also educational driven technology company. So you’re speaking along our language there.
12:43
In terms of that transfer of technological knowledge or expertise or skill, whatever it is, how, how do you work with those individuals to frame their mindset to to create the environment for them to be successful to be open to learning to apply those lessons.

Ana Melikian
12:58
First is to most of my target market coaches and consultants, thereby focus to his baby boomers and Late GENERATION X. So it’s then nderstanding who you’re reaching too is really important in anything that you do.
13:16
And the one thing that is very clear. These people were not born with an iPod in their hands or the smartphone in their hands.

Derek Lundsten
13:24
Sure.

Ana Melikian
13:25
Those things didn’t exist. So it’s normal that their relationship with technology is different than the younger generation. So recognizing that I always find
13:37
So funny and interesting. And if you see an adult of a certain age approaching a new remote control. You mentioned that you are in somebody’s house and somebody oh change channel.
13:50
If somebody of a certain age approaching the remote control. And a kid the approaching a remote control. He’s like, I mentioned that

Todd Staples
13:59
I can already visualize this so perfectly

Ana Melikian
14:02
Yeah, he’s he’s he’s like oh my gosh this can blow. If I press the wrong key is going to detonate so they they are like, almost. This is dangerous. I am, by the way, let me try. I know that will
14:17
So, and understanding our understanding that then becomes a question how can we teach somebody that was not born in this universe of technology how to use because it’s a teachable skill is a growth mindset you can learn this. So,

Derek Lundsten
14:38
That’s exactly that’s that’s golden right there. Right. I mean, if the growth mindset, the openness to learn the openness to new approach the openness to unlearn
14:47
Things that may be limiting someone from from seeing a new future possibility. Yes, that’s kind of what I was taking from when you were talking about. Right.

Ana Melikian
14:55
Totally

Todd Staples
14:56
No openness to fail. Right. I think that’s the problem with the remote. They don’t want to hit any button that could possibly be the wrong one.

Derek Lundsten
15:03
Right, right.

Todd Staples
15:04
Because then life is over the TV will never work

Derek Lundsten
15:07
What’s the psychological game that’s happening. But I think that what happens when make them right

Ana Melikian
15:12
Yeah. And these and you can see again, going back
15:17
It’s incredible out quick kids learn these their own mistakes are not so good because even if we think everybody though if we don’t have a physical problem. We will learn how to walk right everybody learned that so
15:33
All human beings learn out walk by standing by falling down and getting back again and that
15:43
By nature and by nurture the people surrounding us. For instance, a kid that gets up sensitive stuff and everybody and they fall. Try again. Everybody supporting them.
15:56
Failure is not the problem, you just try again everybody supporting and the key is always because they want to reach things they are doing it anyway. So all the nature nurture is like
16:10
really helping them to fail to learn and keep learning that very soon is incredible milestone, because we are afraid that the kids get hurt
16:19
The nurture starts the culture, the environments. That’s a whole, but be careful with it if you do that wrong, then he’s ouchie and if you do end as adults we are supposed to know we have our stuff together so we are not supposed to do mistakes.
16:34
So that is the same way and we learn the play. We learn the. Okay, why not try something different. Well, why not try something that we are not really good at and then we make
16:49
A fool of ourselves. I said, okay, of what is going to say of my professionalism. What is going to say about what the other people are going to think
17:01
And that limits us a lot. Sure. And the thing is that we have to recognize that. But after becoming aware of it, the question becomes, okay. So if, if this is like a constraint that we are imposing on us and limit us as people and as business owners, what can we do about it. Right.

Derek Lundsten
17:25
So I there’s so many things that you raised in there. So one is, so I have a young child.
17:31
You know, we were going through that process or an hour. So she’s literally learning to walk and we do exactly
17:36
What you what you say, and I find myself, you know, thinking about her a few years going to school and I imagine that exact culture you talk about where there are these constraints and these limitations that are that are
17:48
Put on to these kids that they are not even that they’re completely not from them right they they look at this completely wide open blank canvas.
17:55
Creativity is on the unlimited and and then somewhere along the lines there was a shift around putting them into this, into the structure that may or may not serve
18:05
The great purpose ultimately right and and I come back to one of the things that we talked a lot about scrimmage.
18:09
Is the concept of play right and incorporating play into our work literally play where you work, right. And so the ideas as adults. How can we bring more of that childlike curiosity openness.
18:22
Just support of each other to to make mistakes to experience of things to try things outside the box to learn differently because everyone is a bit different. And it’s not a one size fits all. And we have to create that
18:34
That environment for people to take risks and make mistakes and be okay with that because that’s how we will learn and ultimately come to new possibilities, right. So,

Ana Melikian
18:43
And one concept that I think also very much used in the software industry that I love is the concept of a sandbox.

Derek Lundsten
18:50
Yes.

Ana Melikian
18:50
You have, you can have developing the software and then you have a sandbox, where you can play. And if you break is not the problem, because it’s not that it’s the sandbox.
19:00
And so how can we create these structures that give us a sandbox, where we can try different things and still have a structure that protects us
19:12
Can be a mastermind can be a buddy with another colleague, but we asked where those spaces where it is okay to try new things and it’s okay to fail miserably.

Derek Lundsten
19:29
So, so here’s a question for you. And so, I mean, obviously I have great appreciation in the world you’re in with entrepreneurs and small business owners and consultants and coaches and I think that many of those people
19:39
Oftentimes come from academia or they come from corporate america and they experienced
19:45
The one culture and their whatever reason drawn are driven by the desire to forge a new culture or a new opportunity, whatever that may be.
19:54
How do we bring more of that into the corporate context. But how do we infuse more of this sandbox curiosity openness, lack of judgment, while still performing while still creating excellence in the context of a culture that is not necessarily at the moment, open to it.

Ana Melikian
20:15
And that, I think that we can look to companies that are doing it different. Sure. Because I think they are already many companies out there that are trying and experimenting in depth, and some of them being extremely successful with it
20:31
Mind volley is the one that comes to my mind immediately in terms of personal development kind of area and
20:40
Because they try to create an environment where people are
20:47
collaborating with people for personal growth, where they I like pushing people. You have to read books of personal growth or
20:56
Sometimes if it’s a very strong word will be great if you do this if you. Great. So they are the, the, the culture from every place that you look at, it’s all about their values and they are trying to leave them.
21:11
Of course, even if we go to the big ones that we can speak about Google that they have the play rooms, they have the not the rooms, all that kind of things are you can
21:20
bet that we cannot deny that they also have a structure, I think, is the important thing is, and if you have a big company, you have to have a certain structure. Yeah, so it’s not
21:32
To see the two things as opposites either or
21:38
it’s how can we have and be very conscious that the structure is a way of reflection of the culture and some structures can constrain creativity and constrain what you want to achieve. So be aware of the dynamics there.
21:56
But at the same time don’t and it’s not one or the other can you create something different, a structure there that
22:07
Allows that creativity going that allows certain values to going Zappos will be a great example of
22:15
From the beginning, and our lessons that he learned from his past successes and failures. And then he tried to do something different in Zappos, and now it’s a great example that people speak about. Yeah.

Derek Lundsten
22:28
I mean, it’s a good segue because I’m sure you have some thoughts on that they’ve done a lot of work. And over the years with that culture so

Todd Staples
22:34
Yes, Tony, Shay was a was a real big inspiration for me after I read his book and
22:42
Yeah, yeah, delivering happiness is fantastic for anyone listening or watching who has not read that it’s it’s a foundational for creating core values and really integrating them into your, your, your company in your, your team.
22:58
Yet one of one of my thoughts was, you know, we talked a lot about like micro micro moments, right. Like are there learning and playing moments that you can sneak into even the most rigid structured culture.
23:11
Right. I think a lot of times when people think of this, they think, well, we’re gonna have to take every Friday off and go to the park and play charades or something and they like. It’s very extreme but sometimes just something so small can make can make an impact.
23:28
Do you have any specific thoughts around that, you know, in terms of, you know, if someone wants to go really big and do a dramatic transformation or if they have something they can dip their toe in the water with

Ana Melikian
23:39
Yeah. And I love that because it’s again it’s not either or. We know the power that for instance that taking a core team to a retreat out of their work space in a beautiful location with a nice training.
23:52
Can be absolutely transformational not the nine death for a second. But when that is not possible or in between because he has the transformation, but you have to keep what is the smaller thing that you can do to bring a little bit of play.
24:12
In the regular day to day off stuff and I believe for maybe one of these is things is going there to just positive psychology
24:22
And the what we know about the importance of gratitude of cultivating gratitude mindset and becoming more aware of the the good stuff, even if they are extremely small.
24:38
So if people can incorporate that in their day to day. So one thing that went well.
24:47
Will be amazing and recommend even in a team, starting with that gratitude mindset. Okay. This went well. I’m very proud of this achievement, starting with that sets the tone.
25:00
And then if you want to take that a step further. Maybe you something like for Marshall Goldsmith that the concept that Marshall Goldsmith, that is a very known executive coaches speak about about the feed forward.
25:14
Instead of feedback in a team, instead of feedback from the direction to you that feedback is like is my analysis. My criticism from past actions.
25:25
And not do anything about it or anything like that. So the feed forward is what can I do moving forward looking to the future and starting from then is because starts by the person to say, okay, they use this behavior. That’s how I would like to change and that the team is there.
25:51
Indeed, how can I make this happen and I’m open open to receive ideas and suggestions to help me to change this.
25:59
Becomes much more active much more fun and end the proactive you something that is not imposed on us, but it’s something that we decide, okay, this will be something helpful for for me. And I think we’ll have a great impact also in the group.

Derek Lundsten
26:17
I love it. I actually, that’s a really important and subtle difference. But I do think it’s me as I’m just imagine that the conversations you’re having with someone, it’s a totally different context of how to apply that so

Ana Melikian
26:29
Again, it’s accepting okay you all of us are different. Yes, there is not one size fits all. And the same time there is a humanity. There are certain characteristics that unites us both of both all of us.
26:44
And the rarely we like to be criticize. That is the reality know we it’s our defense immediately come up. So we cannot have the expectations that other people are going to be different at that level
26:59
Sure. So how can we, but we still have to give. We have to still give information that helps people improvement. Right. So how can we do that in a different way.

Derek Lundsten
27:12
Yeah i mean it’s it’s the separation on some level between the between the person and the task or the person and the skill and and bridging that
27:20
Gap right and that’s where it’s like supporting the person while providing guidance on the actual opportunity for improvement or growth. Right.

Ana Melikian
27:29
Yeah. And I just want to take that a little bit to an extreme and a couple of examples because I think it’s really important.
27:38
There is a space for everything. So you can use the coaching style and as parents will learn this very quickly here. What an ideal coaching style there.
27:47
Or we asked questions and then we follow up with another question and let people connect the dots and that can be extremely powerful anybody that can be in that kind of coaching environment, know the power of it.
28:00
But let’s face it in the military. If the commander, if somebody say something they are to obey immediately. Otherwise, they don’t achieve their goals and the way and lives can be in danger or we don’t need to go to the military. Think about fire.
28:18
Fires people it or the site. So there is an even in a company. Sometimes we are so the leader of the team has to say x and access to be bad, but that doesn’t mean that is just there. How can we stop the thing or is either are, how can we bring both things to the mix.

Unknown Speaker
28:40
Right.

Derek Lundsten
28:41
Absolutely. I mean, I think. And I think that that’s the point. Right. I think you can easily make the case that the military is a great example of leadership of management task management of efficiency productivity.
28:53
And I think you can also argue the opposite that completely self governing team with with, you know, more loose rules and open communication and different things.
29:03
They can both be successful depending on what’s the environment and context and
29:09
Then if you can bring them together if I delete. I think if you look at some of the you know the generals that are out of the military now that are speaking on leadership, for example.
29:17
They’re actually they give voice to that. I mean, they speak to the fact that any good leaders will is to be a good listener first and foremost. Right. And so whether you’re whether you’re in a military where it’s more
29:28
You know directive versus more self directed in maybe in the corporate culture both scenarios require a high degree of of self awareness and listening.
29:38
To in order to provide leadership to that purpose. Right, so

Ana Melikian
29:41
Yeah yeah

Derek Lundsten
29:43
That’s really interesting and I both and they also require a high degree of
29:48
Cultures that want learning and development which definitely the military does right there’s always a path to progress, you’re always moving up the ranks always growing through the organization right and changing through that.
29:59
And it’s the same thing that you see in high high impact high productivity cultures and businesses is that there’s also a growth mindset, a growth culture and enhancement to continually top rate and upgrade and and do that right so

Ana Melikian
30:14
And it goes back for me is not I’m always going to, it’s not the either or because we have the tendency to say one is bad. One is good. No, it depends. Depends on the context. Depends on what you are trying to achieve.
30:25
Is like for instance for I’m now in the last couple of years, putting a lot of energy and effort to learn more about I performance and applying that in my day to day and seeing great results. And one of the things is, focus, focus, focus, focus.
30:41
At the same time is output if we don’t have a space to one focus. How can we be creative. Sure.

Unknown Speaker
30:50
Yeah, I totally agree.

Ana Melikian
30:52
So both things and create space for both things or and other things.

Derek Lundsten
30:59
So let me ask this going back to the beginning of the conversation and you talk about the scale the negative to the positive
31:06
In both those situations. What, what is the motivator.
31:10
For an individual or desire for an individual seeking either help or seeking coaching in order like what’s the common theme or trade that you see there between the pain versus growth or you know dysfunction versus growth.

Unknown Speaker
31:26
And

Ana Melikian
31:27
That is a very good question. And if I can find a common denominator there but usually the pain of not changing becomes bigger than the status quo.
31:42
Again is easier for most humans, with some exceptions.
31:48
But it’s most of us, it’s just easier to keep things going. As they are even if we are not happy with the situation just easy, the inertia is there we know we can foresees the bad that we know we complain we vent, but we keep going between the pain of the situation.
32:13
Arrives to a certain level, they are to give us enough energy know we have the crisis and time sees a deadline, sometimes sees awakening.
32:27
From illness to somebody close to us, whatever. But there is all you can be a small thing, but usually there is something because sometimes it’s the drop the drop of the
32:40
Of the water then and then one drop makes the glass spill out that that that is something that the pain becomes bigger and usually that negative being as the motivation to do something about it.

Derek Lundsten
32:56
Yeah, I mean, I think, as you’re talking here and it’s also the opposite is also true, right, for people that are
33:02
Arguably, on the positive already right there. Actually, the ultimate will seek the pain they seek the discomfort and to some extent in order to push themselves beyond their existing
33:12
Perceived limits or boundaries, whatever that may be. Right, there’s another, there’s comfort or or maybe not pain but
33:18
This change growth requires and discomfort.

Ana Melikian
33:21
Yes, that is a great observation i think that i think that i performers. A learn along their path that there. They have to be comfortable with uncomfortable.
33:35
And that there is the the growing zone that you have to go out of your comfort zone. That is so many speak about that they have. That is something that
33:45
People have to learn about and then when they start to get rewards. Okay. And then they are more motivated to do it, but they are not going to the to their thinking, oh, I’m going to get the hurt right now. I know that I can learn from this. Sure.

Derek Lundsten
34:06
So how do you, how do you frame that conversation. How do you frame those conversations differently for those two audiences, if you will, and your as you evolve in your own journey.

Ana Melikian
34:15
Yeah, and the SOMETIMES YOU say. Usually we are, and hopefully steps ahead of the people that are following us. That is why they are following us. That is why we are leaders.
34:28
And we have to keep going and learning to have something that we can teach them.
34:36
But what sometimes these produces that that sometimes we get very disconnected from where we start in our journey and we are, which is more difficult for us to relate. So if we start here. Now we are here, we can realize maybe to the people that are in this space.
34:56
Right relate to the people from where we start sometimes is difficult. Right. And again, the listening.
35:04
And nurturing other people. They are that are closer to them to become their leaders, they are, again, different ways of doing that listening and the staff that we recognizing that we have blind spots. We I
35:21
We cannot avoid that. But by become aware of. There are areas. They are the we are not totally aware is the first step to ask, Okay, what else can I know we here. What else can I ask, what else can I see that allow me to understand better and do something different.

Derek Lundsten
35:45
So rich. Cool.

Todd Staples
35:48
I love one of my, my favorite thinkers recently is Ray Dalio from Bridgewater, and his book principles and He sums. He sums up his entire philosophy in this great statement and he says pain plus reflection equals progress and it’s just beautiful. And my question based around that is
36:10
Like
36:11
Do you think the people who maybe can’t handle sort of the painful parts or the failing. Do you think that’s because they’re skipping. Step number two.
36:24
Not reflecting on the pain. So they’re not actually improving from the pain and the difficulties that they went through. So it’s just pain and difficulty and they don’t take the time to really integrate the lessons.
36:34
Why they’re geared away from it more

Ana Melikian
36:37
How my first instinct, they say no because there are people that reflect alot in their painful experience and don’t get progress.
36:45
And because the are just reinforcing is some mindset some negative mindsets that keep them on the situation, the reflection has to be done in a is what can I learn from these, that will allow me to try something different in the future.
37:07
So it’s not I, I like the pain plus reflection equals progress, but that will put he says specific time of reflection. It’s not test looking

Todd Staples
37:17
So it’s interesting the way they, the way that you phrase that the reflection is about
37:21
Doing something different in the future, not doing the same thing and doing it better. Yeah. Alright, so
37:28
What I’ve
37:28
Learned to avoid the potholes that you keep falling in. I guess.

Ana Melikian
37:31
Yeah, and that. What is that quote i i don’t know if now by. But the quote that says we cannot expect different results. If you keep repeating the same thing over and over again.
37:43
And that is the reality of things. So what can we learn
37:47
And then we also. One thing that I learned I still remember speaking about books that I think all of us here love to read them and books, a book that for me was very transformational. And this is short, is what I call aeroplane around this.
38:02
Book, if you’re really an aeroplane right that is
38:06
Go for know is the name of the book, and there is a parable is a story. But the thing in a nutshell, is that most of us, we think that we have a fork in the road them.
38:19
And then if we choose one path will be success if we choose that path that is going to be failure. And it’s really important to make the right decision.
38:29
And then if we face failure on my gosh, we have to go back to that fork in the road and to choose the right path.
38:36
And if we look to successful people it’s not for the reality. It’s not like they’re most times. The reality is one path
38:45
And that is failure we learn from it. We get up. We try again we fall again we and then sometimes we get success and then there is still failure in front of us. If we want to keep progressing and do other things. Right. So the success path is full of failures that we learn from

Derek Lundsten
39:07
Yeah, I think that’s six I completely agree with you and me and I just think good nice and the idea of
39:13
Only in games in the game. Right. Is there a true win or loss. Right. That’s the intention of failure. And that’s where it goes back to perception right goes back to how is it being viewed
39:22
In the context of that and even, even in, you know, it’s just baseball’s example right there’s 162 games.
39:28
They lose many of those games, they can still go on to have a winning season, they can still got another championship season. You can even have a day that you’re that you’re playing poorly with the next day you learn you apply you tweak it and make adjustments as you go right

Ana Melikian
39:40
And this is one of the reasons that I love sports and mainly for kids because we, in terms of culture. Things are changing so much and we protect
39:50
A little bit too much, maybe, including me, my kid. I have a 10 year old. We and the experience of sports is that there is, OK, you are not going to win every game. Let’s face it.
40:03
But that doesn’t mean that you cannot win the season. That doesn’t mean that we cannot learn and have fun. So that experience even the company they bring that kind of the place where people can train there that is OK to fail that we can learn that we can try again. It is extremely powerful.

Derek Lundsten
40:25
I love it and I just go back to the idea of playing right just keep playing keep trying keep working. Keep growing keep adjusting keep improving right it’s all part of the process of learning and in both business and in life.
40:38
Really good place to come to it, Todd.

Todd Staples
40:40
Yeah, I saw, I saw just a just an interesting insight. It might be worth just a minute or two discussion I saw an article the other day about some new science and new studies that are coming out about video games and kids who
40:53
played video games and how I think what they were getting and I just skimmed it very briefly, but what they’re getting at was
41:01
It creates a different mindset for kids sit down and they will play and fail, and fail, and fail, and fail, and fail.
41:08
And they can just play again they know that they can just get right back in. You have as many lives as you want. You have as many times to screw up as you possibly could.
41:15
Stay awake for until late into the night. So they were saying that there was some unexpected positive benefits of video games because of some of these skills that you don’t get that quickly in many other areas of life.

Ana Melikian
41:33
I like that for framing a lot
41:35
Is the thing about. And he said, learning that allows you to try something. Try something and be persistent
41:45
To make something happen and you’re almost there. And then you try again. So I like that. And at the same time and then
41:55
And the thing, if we think about games like Minecraft. If I only know a little of seeing my daughter playing it. I think it’s the survival. There are two modes for it. And one of the modes you only have one life.
42:12
And you really have to take very good care of that life
42:15
It was your
42:15
Only one but that does mean that you don’t try this with you.
42:19
And I think it’s again it’s not one or the other. It’s both it’s good to have the opportunities. There are many, but in the online world. They also have to learn very quickly social media specifically
42:30
They had something that they put out there becomes as ripple effects. And so again, the, the, the ability of really holding these two apparently contradictory things
42:49
And still keep going forward.

Todd Staples
42:55
So what’s the, what is the right level of failure when you’re when you’re trying to train your team, right. How can we encourage
43:04
The, the correct amount of experimentation and failure without making people think they can just keep screwing up and doing things poorly, just because it’s practice or they can do it again.

Ana Melikian
43:16
Again, that is uh. I think there is a great question. And again, having that space to try things, but we have the deadline. I hate the term deadlines, but they work.
43:31
To a have a deadline for something I would like a better name for it, but
43:39
If we have to
43:41
Like the exam for me thinking about the school system. We have to have an exam, a quiz, even if we don’t get a, get 100%. There we go, whatever we have, we put there we give our most and then we keep going forward.
43:59
So it’s like the sport teams. You can try and you can try different things, but then. It’s game time. It’s game time you have to try to give your best in the game time
44:11
So I think it’s the again. They are the balance. They’re going from one to the other and finding a different that we have to keep going.
44:21
I don’t know if I’m answering totally our question because I don’t have a formula for that

Derek Lundsten
44:27
I think the answer is there is no clear answer, but I think you gave a good one. Ana on on your perspective. So thank you. I didn’t just been a really, really fun and enter you I can’t believe we how fast the time went by.
44:38
I just want to thank you for joining us and for just your openness and conversation sharing your perspective and your experience in this topic.

Ana Melikian
44:45
And I love that you make questions that make me think of things that I feel and taught before love that

Derek Lundsten
44:51
Happy to do it. Awesome.

Todd Staples
44:54
Ana thank you so much. That was really that was really fun and where, where can people follow up because you do have a ton of really interesting
45:02
Content you’ve created your, your mindset.
45:07
Mindset zone podcast is excellent and you have your online training your membership. Right. Can you tell, just a quick quick plug on that so people know where to find you.

Ana Melikian
45:17
The easiest way to find me online is my personal website, that is anamelikian.com
45:28
and I presume that in the show notes. You will have that information that is the easiest way my first last name.com
45:37
And you will find everything that I do there, including the mindsets on podcast that I’m so proud, is that space work our mindset to give it a little bit of flexibility mindset workouts.
45:49
So to speak, and the tactic for code focus on coaches consultants trainers soloprenuers that want to simplify their online life and be there implementing staff and other projects that they are focusing, they will be they are on my website.

Derek Lundsten
46:07
Amazing.
46:10
Thank you so much.

Ana Melikian
46:12
Pleasure to

Todd Staples
46:13
Talk with you soon.

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