Technology is constantly changing and so is the way we learn. VR is taking the world by storm with all of the effective, adaptable and scalable options to create the ultimate learning experience. It has a proven track record to increase retention because learners are able to see and do at the same time. Revinax CEO and neurosurgeon Maxime Ros, explains the positive impact that VR has on learning + shows us firsthand some of the libraries he and his team have developed.

  • 0:01 – The learner journey
  • 1:24 – The power of self-teaching
  • 5:42 – Why VR is becoming a preferred learning technology
  • 11:39 – Learning with the tools available to you
  • 13:08 – VR in the OR
  • 19:31 – Learning processes & techniques through immersive tutorials

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Full Episode Transcription :
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Derek: (02:03)
So awesome. So gentlemen, thank you again for joining us here in the studio. Appreciate how far you traveled all the way from Paris, from New York Max and Brandon with REVINAX, here to talk to us about all things, virtual reality, augmented reality and how the technology landscape is changing in education and obviously something that’s very important and around Scrimmage as well. But I think just start why don’t we start with how you’ve come into this space. I mean, you literally came from being a physician, you were a surgeon and just decided to start a virtual reality technology company. How did, how’d that happen? 

Max: (02:45)
I was a pediatric neurosurgeon, so you know, that should be able to perform my first surgeries. I had to travel a lot going in there. Lots of different hospitals to learn from various experience. And the main program is even if you are in the operating room with them, you around being beside them or behind them, sometimes facing them so your brain isn’t memorizing in the right direction. And then when you get back home, when you want to review quickly your technique, in fact you don’t have a lot of opportunity to be able to act for the first time. 

Derek: (03:23)
And so you just said, this is the way I need to build this solution. Just recognize at the moment. 

Max: (03:27)
I was engaged in a university career, so I began to learn about instructional design mainly for physicians and first being engaged in you know, physics and education sciences. And then at this time it was the revival of VR, virtual reality. And then we began with the development kit from environments of course, and we went through these different steps in order to be able to do, think about an environments really dedicate you for training through VR.

Derek: (04:06)
Got it. Yeah. You mentioned something there. I think it’s important to respond to is that VR has been around for 20 almost 30 years, was like as a, as a technology, but only now is it really hitting to the point due to cost effectiveness, the quality of the video sensors, the quality of the interaction is that it’s becoming a tool that can be used mainstream and education and business and customer experience entertainment. Right? And so I commend you for recognizing that opportunity to make immersive learning a more, more efficient tasks. Right. and so, so with that, tell us a little bit how you you know, how you see this evolving for REVINAX and how your technology is going to support learning of the future. 

Max: (04:52)
Well now the main difference with the all VR is that it can be scalable. At first what we wanted to do is to have an easy way to create contents. Cause this is one of the key points. How do I create contents easy? But how do I create an efficient content for training first? So again, when you have created the content, how do you deploy it to make it at scale? And then it comes with the improvement of hardwares, which are they, they improve the resolution, they improve the, the the user experience, and now magically you can you can execute it at scale. 

Derek: (05:40)
Yeah. So I’m glad you mentioned that too because it goes, it reminds me of the story of how we started the Scrimmage with mobility, right? So using phones and tablets and seeing that that was a more efficient, effective way at scale to help people learn, you know, wherever they are, whenever they are. I personally see VR and AR is kind of an extension of mobility is, it’s another mobile device. It allows you to learn wherever you are, whenever you’d like to, but in a more immersive experience. Right. So surrounding you and seeing it real practical, how can you apply the lessons or experience the lessons in a way that doesn’t come off the screen on a, on a phone or a tablet? Correct. Yeah. 

Max: (06:17)
This is a continuum. In fact, if you take the the learner journey, it’s, it’s there are other media or the tools let’s have to be implementing into this learner journey. Yeah. So for hers, VR due to the immersive aspect, give you the emotional or engagements, allowing the learner to to learn better. In fact make, make the content stick. That’s memory. Then we have the mobile for our experiences, it’s being used more for we viewing and then the AR in order to be assisting during the procedure in in our environment. In fact, every piece has its own room and it’s a real continuum. Now VR, won’t, we play the mobile, mobile won’t we’ll play the VR neither the augmented reality. You have to follow these different paths. 

Derek: (07:21)
Yeah. There’s room for each one of them for different modalities. So if we’re coming around for a second, I want to ask you, Brandon, how you obviously been helping the company for a couple of years now. How did you come to be involved with REVINAX and what about this technology attracted you?

Brandon: (07:35)
Yeah. I think initially when I had first met Maxime it was at a international event where we were getting exposed to to new technology. And one of the, one of the showcases, there was a phone in a headset. At that time it was a Samsung gear and it was the first time I’d tried virtual reality and it was surgery. So I I had come from a background in HR and payroll and this and I had also been more hands on in my personal life being barbering, things like that. And being self-taught, a technical skill trade and being able to see how something is done and feeling as though I was there allowed me to really understand quickly, you know, how powerful of a tool this could be. So I think really what struck me was being able to, I think people use the word immerse a lot, but really it just, you feel like you are in that place and, and that’s something that a video and other ways we learned today. It just, you have to go somewhere, you know, you have, there’s constraints. The learning experientially today that VR will help us to access in a more scalable way. So just that experience initially was one part of it. The other part of it was at the time that max was starting Revinax as a company, not just a technology to test when it was really being formed. It was his passion and drive as a surgeon is something that transcends into this company. You know, it takes a certain individual to go from taking years in one profession and saying, you know, this is, this is where I want to put my energy at the same time. But it was more than, it was more than his passion for the, for VR. It was also his passion for what it could do for people globally. At, at the inception of making, making the platform, it was really to share surgery globally to parts of the world where you know, it’s nice to help students and hospitals here in the U S where we have access to some of the best, right? But if you think about all the other people in this world who, if they just had access to basic surgery, basic. medical procedures that we, that we take for granted really not for granted, but that, that we could share more easily. That was the premise of why I started working for this company. And, and as a means to reach that goal, still today we’ve, we’ve thought how could we grow this commercially faster in order to give other people the opportunity to get this content? That’s really what drove me to work closely with the company.

Derek: (10:51)
I’m glad you mentioned that because that’s another key factor where we’ve aligned from a, from a value standpoint. So again, back to mobility, we still see opportunity. It says education of any form, whether it be health care, surgical education or language or financial education, whatever it is. There’s a large population, right? The rising billion as they’re called, that are coming online. And even more so when you talk about skill, then the economics of that contribution, they’re talking about billions of people of, of intellectual capital, of creativity, of, of solutions that we have the ability collectively to influence and to provide access to, right. For lack of a better term. So I think that’s really, really exciting. I really appreciate that. In terms of the application of Revinax with your customers, and we’re going to see the technology in a minute, I’m excited to play around with it. What, what type of feedback? Both anecdotally and they’ve, you’ve seen measured in terms of how using this in their practice or in their training or in their classroom, exciting or whatever is having an impact on the end client or the end User.

Max: (11:53)
So we, after the first while effect you have when you use VR. The second feedback we had was, I’ve never seen this before. Even the ones who know VR because the method we design is very unique. But then we cannot just say this and it’s not in. It has not been designed just to be cool. Of course we needed to prove its effect, its efficiency so we performed several studies. Now we have involved more than 350 students studies are being published. He took a little while to design the study to to run it and then to have the results analysis and to write. So for the first one we wanted to, it was the proof of concepts and to see if there was a pedagogy called interest. So there were from the students to the Senior to the hospital. We, they try these and we ask them what we learned is that they more than 85% say that they will have adopted this technology if it was available when there were students. Why? Because they will have learned faster. The assumption but why? Because I understand better. That’s a really good point. And second point, there were no difference according to the age because this is a family, your environment. This is real life. Then second study, 175 students there. One group went to technical log, they have to read the operative technique and the other one how the technical log plus VR. And we have shown that they were able to answer bitter the survey immediately and six month after and now we are writing the final article in digitizing evolved 90 students and these child, they had to perform a gesture just after and now we have shown that they were able to do it much more faster than the one who didn’t go through VR. 

Derek: (14:19)
Fascinating. I mean it just shows the multiplication, right? The combating effect of those technologies.

Brandon: (14:24)
Yeah. I think it’s also worth mentioning some of the larger medical device companies that are, that are, that are starting to utilize this for their own training means maybe you can share a little bit about about some of the initial programs they’re running with it and how they’ve designed it. 

Max: (14:43)
They usually we begin always in this news tree with a pilot. So the first pilot we did for example, it was for one of the pilots we did. Got up. So my working, for example with Medtronic, which is the larger medical device company, they use it. At first it was to showcase an operative technique in front of an audience and then people had to try the VR experience. Then now what they do, we build for with them a library of contents and they use it either during workshops with their physicians, but also step by step. It also being used to train, train internally for sales of course for the rep sales, but also to make the other person being able to understand sure how the product is being used.

Derek: (15:49)
Yeah, so some that’s confidence. I think. I obviously am a huge advocate for this technology. And in the context that we’re talking about, do you for for rednecks personally, do you see yourself specializing more in supporting healthcare organizations or do you see supporting students or, or both? Where do you see it? Is it, is it a mutual path or are you picking, are you favoring one over the other? For the time being, and this goes back to the question I’m going to come round to, you have to your entrepreneurial journey, which I think is also really interesting.

Max: (16:18)
So let’s say for the medical device companies for example we design the tutorial with them collaborating, but let’s say students cannot pay for designing new tutorial. So this time what we did and we began with the nurses, it’s to invest on our own, to create a library of content, dedicate it for nurses training either in initial education or continuing education. And here what we propose, it’s a subscription based model with a few amount monthly to give them the possibility to have access to these contents. So we are still creating contents for medical device companies. And then we have also the possibility to create libraries of content to make it available for a large number. And here I connect directly with Brandon regarding the, what we want to do for the wall, half of a musician by giving access to 44 procedures, which can be saved up to 5 million people if any one were on the planet’s could perform this not anyone of course, but any healthcare professionals. Yeah. 

Brandon: (17:50)
I think also what’s interesting about the way that we going back to Max’s point early on, which is making content easy to create, it also allows it to be more flexible where you’re created. So let’s say for example, there’s an off the shelf library that’s successful in one country cause the nursing program and that country has certain education path. But let’s say in some of the countries that we’re talking about where they don’t have access to certain procedures, they don’t necessarily want to learn from a doctor in the U S or doctor in the UK. They want to learn what it’s like to, to do medical procedures in the context of their hospital with the tools that they have. So we feel like it’s really an opportunity, you know, if the right people have access to this technology, it could be done in the context of the countries and the locations that needed them, that it can have the most impact. So that’s the other, the other part to this that can be really interesting. But yeah, going back to the two models right now the business is mostly on demand, content creation and, and the platform itself. And then we are working on off the shelf content that can be accessed by an audience of students in the U S and that’s being done today in Europe, in the U S now. It really will be based on the partners that we can work with here. 

Derek: (19:18)
That’s great.

Max: (19:19)
What was interesting also, it’s to see that of course healthcare is what lead this project at first. And because of the humanitarian proposes that we had in mind or still having mine then what happen is in order to create the, these contents, we can go further and deeper on this. We had to design a hardware and produce and this hardware, we spend more than a thousand hour in the OR trades. So some companies who were walking in difficult constraint environments like the operating room asked us the possibility to use our tutorial for their purposes, but their purposes are more maintenance for example.

Brandon: (20:16)
And then in manufacturing. 

Max: (20:18)
And manufacturing. Yeah. So we began also to to have other opportunities because of the high quality content variable to designer for surgical purposes. Now being able also to reach other verticals because they know that if we, we have been able to do it in OR we can apply it to other industries where the, it’s not the same. But it makes sense.

Derek: (20:50)
I love it. 

Brandon: (20:51)
And those industries are microchip processing plants where it’s a typical production process. Can’t really be used in that environment or clean rooms in nuclear facilities. So pretty wide range.

Derek: (21:06)
Well, so I think with that let’s play around with the technology. I think. Let’s see some demos. Yeah. Let’s show the audience.

**VR DEMO**



Brandon: (24:02)
So, so right here this is a login screen that is also inside the headset. We can see, you know, how many users are logging in, how they’re interacting with questions inside of the exterior, what role they’re choosing. So there is on the back end the ability to see that as well.

Max: (25:42)
Okay. So here is the 360 video. We use 360 just for one chapter to make the people understanding where they are, if they need then I can switch to another chapter. And here I’m, literally living the experience through the eyes of the surgeon. I can see how it perform a puncture. If I go on the left side, I can see a powerpoint which explains the performed case and if I turn open my white controller, I can have also other that sound like, for example here the CT scan. Then I come back to the main screen. I have also the voiceover which she explaining me exactly what is going on and I can switch between the different chapters. Here he has performed the puncture and now I can see on the X rays just raising the little in my head exactly synchronized With his hands to understand what is the deployments of his device. Now you can see that you have also two different, X-rays which are usually what you have in the OR. So this is a VR player. I can switch, but you can see all so that according to the different chapters I can have difference additional data. So let’s say if I go here, for example, this time on my right side, I can see another video which aims to explain in a different way what is going on in the main screen. In fact. So this is our environment. When you have the first person view the additional data. And then the different chapters, this is what we call the immersive tutorial and the immersive tutorial is a part of a library and you can pick up into this library, all the other tutorials to be able to learn different technique procedurals but also processes. 

Derek: (27:55)
Really well done. I really enjoyed the UX and I can see why it’s such a great experience. So thank you. 

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